Andy Haldane: No-one ever gets a round of applause for the spoken [laughter]. Welcome everyone to this flagship seminar, special flagship seminar with our very special guest Judy Murray. Judy, welcome to the Bank.
Judy Murray: Thank you.
Andy Haldane: These days Judy's probably best known for her coaching, her tennis coaching and indeed her dancing.
Judy Murray: Hmmm. Why does everybody laugh when you say that [laughter]…I don’t understand [laughter].
Andy Haldane: But as you probably know she was herself a national tennis champion, winner of over 60 titles and tournaments, and was on the professional tour for a bit. But it's in tennis coaching I think that Judy came to position of real prominence nationally and indeed internationally. In 1995 Judy was the first woman ever to pass the Lawn Tennis Association's performance coach award. Remarkable that it took her to 1995 to let that happen [laughter]. I’m sure we’ll come back to that.
Judy Murray: I’m sure you find that in a lot of businesses.
Andy Haldane: In the same year Judy became the Scottish national tennis coach as well. In that role Judy initiated the Scottish development school programme which has really been about producing what is now a conveyor belt of top-level players who played Davison and Federation Cup. Judy also coached, early in their careers, her two sons Jamie and Andy, you may have heard of them. Thanks to Judy I mean both of them went on to play tennis to a reasonably high standard [laughter].
Judy Murray: They did okay [laughter].
Andy Haldane: Winning between them ten majors I think, four Wimbledon titles and two Olympic gold medals which is quite good really. In 2011 Judy was appointed captain of the British Federation Cup team and alongside lots of on-court success for that team, Judy also used the role to grow the profile and the numbers of women in tennis, both as coaches and as players, through a string of initiatives including, including A Miss Hits, which is starter program for girls aged 5 to 8 and Tennis on the Road, which is a programme that takes tennis to some of the remoter and often less advantaged parts of Scotland. Both fantastic initiatives, and only one of many Judy has been involved with. The Judy Murray Foundation at which Judy is a trustee, itself continues to promote tennis…
Judy Murray: Very imaginatively name that [laughter].
Andy Haldane: …right across tennis and for that work in tennis in women in sport and for charity, Judy was a warded an OBE back in 2017. And as you all know, it has already been mentioned, Judy waltzed quite literally onto our screens in 2014 when she took part in Strictly before Viennese Waltzing off eight weeks later at the Blackpool ballroom. Judy you’re an inspirational figure, not just for woman in sport but actually for the role that sport can play in supporting wider society. So please join me in welcoming to the Bank Judy Murray.
Judy Murray: Thank you.
Andy Haldane: Welcome
Judy Murray: Thank you
Andy Haldane: Tennis and Scotland weren't an obvious match until you arrived on the scene.
Judy Murray: No they weren't. I mean tennis is, it still is sadly but it has always been a bit of a minority sport in Scotland and when I was young there was really not much infrastructure and you can you kind of play tennis in the summer and you did something else in the winter because our weather is shit as you know [laughter] and we didn't have indoor courts so I played tennis in the summer months and I played badminton through the winter. And you know and as a result nobody aspired to be a tennis player, a full-time tennis player it was something you maybe saw on the TV for two weeks during Wimbledon but you never would have imagined that you could do it because we just didn't have the setup. But you also never would have aspired to be a tennis coach in Scotland because you could only work in that sport for a few months of the year. So you know I think that what happened with Andy and Jamie and some of the other kids that I worked with when I became the national coach, which was for me was had no business to be the national coach but actually nobody else wanted the job [laughter]. It's true. It had been vacant through ninety, end of 93 right through till I started in the beginning of 95. And if you think about it we had at that time no indoor courts, we had no infrastructure, we had no top players, we had no other even international level coaches so it was never going to attract somebody from another country. Why would it, because there's nothing, there's nothing there other than a job title. But I was persuaded to apply for the job by a woman, who was at the time, she was the secretary of Scottish Tennis Association of which now you'd call it a chief exec job, but it was pretty much two people in a little room. That, that was the extent of her National Federation. Anyway she persuaded me to apply for it. I’d just passed this performance coach award, and this performance coach award, it was a 12-month thing, and so you did a number of workshops across the 12 months. And what I understood was that to invest in the kids that I was working with, I needed to invest in myself first. So my children were seven and eight at the time and so I went off and did this 12-month course, all these, these workshops, and as a result of passing that and I passed it because I was clever, I didn't pass it because I was a good coach. It was very, it was a bit like being back at university again. It was loads of lectures there was not enough practical stuff. It didn't give me what I wanted other than loads of information which I then had to go and learn how to practically apply. And as a result of that, I am this massive believer in on-the-job training, and so this is what I do now. I take tennis in Scotland, mainly to rural and deprived areas, and I build workforces in local communities, and I show them how to make it usable, doable, fun and quality teaching. It’s all, it’s all, everything I do is built on common sense. And I say it's all very simple but it's simple genius. Everything is there for, for a reason. And anyway I get this job as the national coach and you know, you sort of think oh my god what have I done here. No, no staff, 25,000 pounds salary, 90,000 pound budget. 90,000 pounds for the whole country from age 7 right through to the seniors and nobody to help me. And what I had just opened at Stirling University was four indoor courts. They didn't belong to Tennis Scotland, they belonged to the University. So I had a basket of balls, a block booking at Stirling University, and me. Pretty much, that was what I started with so I thought I've got start quite small I started with erm 20 children that I thought had the most potential across the whole of the country and they were aged between 7 and 11. Need to start young. And not pass on the older ones but you can't do as much with the older ones because they're already formed to a certain extent, so they were my priority these 20 kids, and somehow we managed to get four of them to play Davis Cup and one to play Fed Cup. One girl who was Elena Baltacha, she was the oldest when I started with she was 11, she went on to be the British number one for many years, made the top 50 in the world. Jamie and Andy did what, what they did which was really remarkable and we never would have imagined that these things would happen. But we also had Colin Fleming who won a gold medal at Commonwealth Games mixed doubles 2010, and Jamie Baker who went on to be about 150 in the world. Colin Fleming made top thirty in doubles so out of our little cottage industry where we didn't really know what we were doing, we managed by going a step at a time, never looking too far, just what's next. What do I need to learn, who can I learn from. It's all about knowing what you don't know, know what you do know, and find somebody who knows what you don't know. That was my theory, it's quite simple one. And I started a performance coach development program with some money from sport Scotland, where I brought people in from other countries to teach us. And I gave the opportunity to eight young coaches and we brought people in from America, from various countries in Europe, to deliver different things. Physical workshops, psychological workshops, but all practical, technical workshops and I learned loads from these people. And I didn't just bring them in for an odd day here and there, I brought them in two or three days at a time, three times a year, because I wanted to build relationships with them, and I wanted them to build relationships with my players and my coaching team. And it was, it for me it was common sense, but when I think back on it now, it is common sense but that's what made it work. The relationships with people, it was all about investing in, in people. And out of my 8 young coaches that started with me, one of them went on to head up disability tennis for the whole of the UK in years to come, another one is one of the best coach educators that we have in the UK. And another one heads up the university scholarship program at Stirling which is a very successful tennis scholarship programme now. And another one is head of men's tennis and the Davis Cup captain and he started with me when he was 20. It's what I mean about a cottage industry. He dropped out of college, he came to me and he said I'm not liking this course that I'm doing, I want to be a tennis coach. And I said fantastic but had no money to pay him. I said I can give you an apprenticeship, I can create all the opportunities for you to learn and travel and so forth, but I don't have money to pay you. I can pay expense but, anyway he started with me when he was twenty and he had the David Beckham hair and a diamond in each year and he was quite gorgeous and he played quite well. And the kids, boys and girls, thought he was the dog's bollocks [laughter] in a way that I would never be the dog's bollocks. And also my, my kids had got to an age where it's not that cool to get coached by your mum really. So I was always there and, and anyway he learned, he wanted to learn he soaked everything up and he's become a remarkable coach and leader. So that was quite a long answer to the question but it was to try and kind of put it into context of where we ended up because I wouldn't have a met, I wouldn't have imagined starting off with my hopper of balls and my little block booking that we would get where we got to but it was literally what's next, what's next, what did he need next, what do we need next, what do we need to create. But where it started before that was I started back at Dunblane Tennis Club as a volunteer when my kids were in nappies and they were driving me mad. They were 15 months apart and I had, just before Andy was born or just after Andy was born, we moved back from Glasgow to Dunblane to be nearer to my mum and dad. And I had to give up my job and my job had a car with it. So no job, no car left Glasgow, left my friends, left my tennis club that was a big part of my life you know playing for the team and everything, and landed back in Dunblane where it suddenly became very apparent to me that the only people I knew were my mum and dad and their friends and I felt really, really trapped. Really trapped. And it was like wow, you know, and kids at that age, that it's not like, it's not like great fun. It's like you’re just knackered all the time. And anyway my mom said she could give me a few hours a week and I went over and re-joined the tennis club and I discovered there’s still no coaches there, there was no coaches in my day you just learned from the other Club members. But you've learned to play the game in a way that kids nowadays they, they learn to play the game by being coached. They are programmed into activity from a young age and less and less of them learn to play the game. It's just all about coaching. So I went over and I did a couple of hours a week with some of the older kids and I wasn't a coach so I taught them to play the game. And as more and more parents asked me if their kids could join in, I said well I could do some more hours but you'd have to look after Andy and Jamie because we had no money. I was doing it voluntarily. We didn't have money. And so I started trading tennis sessions for childcare [laughter]. Don't judge me, don't judge me. That was how I got started and as the club grew more bigger in, in terms of number of people playing, I brought the parents in because I couldn't do everything myself and I wanted to run competitions, I wanted school teams and club teams and all the rest of it. So brought the parents in and I had the parents running the cafe doing the notice boards. Gave them all, most of them, jobs to do so it was cottage industry. And actually when I moved from there into the wider region, so 16 clubs in our region, started creating things for as a region and then moved into the national court show, I did the same thing I brought the parents in and by bringing the parents in you not only inform them, but you create a workforce for yourself, but you also create a sense of belonging and we're all in it together. Whereas in an individual sport like tennis or golf when the parent has to do so much of the organizing to make everything happen, it's quite different being a parent of somebody in an individual sport than being in a team sport. Because if my kids had been great at cricket or rugby or football they'd have been signed up by a club and the club would have taken care of everything. Fixtures, kit, training, transport, everything. They probably have paid them a whopping great wage and bonus as well. Whereas in tennis you have to make everything happen. You pay for everything and you live or starve by whether you win or not further down the line. It's very, very different world of a professional athlete in the individual sport - in a team sport. So when I went into the national coach role it was the parents of the 20 kids, you're going to have to help me, you're going to have to put each other up overnight, we're going to have to do car shares and all the rest of it. And as a result everybody's working together, you're not working against each other which often happens, you get competitive with the pecking orders and the parents get competitive with each other. There's nothing worse than the pushy parents and I am not a pushy parent [laughter]. You may have been told that for years by the media but it's actually not true, [laughter] honestly.
Andy Haldane: Well tell me about those. Talk me through the kind of, the Murray family. So you, I'm guessing it's quite competitive you know when you were growing up the boys, the boys are growing fast. What stage were they beating you by the way Judy, at tennis?
Judy Murray: Yeah that was a bad day for me. Probably, I think Jamie maybe around thirteen and Andy around twelve. And I think that they were lucky and I don't mean that in any kind of big-headed way, they were lucky that they had parents and grandparents who would play everything with them, not just tennis. We played everything with them and as a result they developed really good hand-eye and foot-eye coordination skills at a very young age. And those are the skills that underpin all sports so it wouldn't have mattered what they've done sport wise they would have been able to do it pretty well. But with tennis they were fortunate to have a parent who played well and I could put the ball where it needed to go. Because in those days you played with kids on a big court with yellow tennis balls. If any of you have known the tennis environment now, kids start with pressureless balls that are red and then you move into an orange one that moves slightly faster and then a green one that moves slightly faster eventually you get to the proper tennis ball. So everything is slowed down and abbreviated so you can start much younger. We didn't have that so I was able to actually create a good training environment by playing with them all the time. Because actually one of the biggest things I learned from my kids was that they don't want to listen to you. They don't really want to be taught by you that's for sure, but they do want to play with you. So the key for me is always about creating the games and exercises that do the teaching for you. And they learn through play, they learn without realising and it's a much better way to learn then tell, tell, tell. Guided discovery, problem solving, because tennis is such a, such a thinking sport. So they, that's when they started to beat me around 12, 12 or 13 and it was a sad day for me. But, but actually it was a great day for them. And one of the things I remember was one time I was playing, I want to play a set, play a set mum, so playing a set and one of them broke a string and it was, oh mum I broke this string, you know and they're so excited, [laughter] so excited because when you're little you don't really break strings that often and nowadays you would get a full restring you wouldn't go and get one string repaired. It was the same back then. When I was young you got a string repaired and all I was thinking was 10 quid. Had no money, 10 quid. A restring cost 10 quid. We haven't got 10 quid. But it's funny the things you just remember that that happened in the first set that Jamie beat me in. And, but yeah that was that was when they beat me, but they were, they were good at other sports. So Jamie was a very good golfer at a young age. He didn't, he played golf a lot with his grandparents and his dad, and he had a three handicap when he was 15. And Andy was a very good footballer and when he was about 14 and a half, he had an opportunity to sign a youth thing with Glasgow Rangers. And at that point he had to make a decision between tennis and football because he couldn't do both because this youth thing was an 8-week squad thing in Glasgow, and he was at the same time invited to go to Italy with the LTA with a GB under 14 or 14 and under tennis team. And I said well you have to choose you know you won't be able to do both but I think there are a lot of people who think that because I'm a tennis coach now, that I brought my kids up to be tennis players, in a bit like Richard Williams dad with Venus and Serena. He brought them up to be tennis players. Errol Woods did the same with Tiger, he brought him up to be a golfer. I wanted my kids to enjoy sport and I evolved into a tennis coach partly because of the, the community club at Dunblane. But also as my kids got better and better and they were part of the national set up, you want to help the kids to improve so it was that whole what's the next step, what's the next step. But a few years ago when Andy was home for Christmas, he panics a bit if he doesn't play for a few days. It's almost like he's going to forget everything still, unbelievable. What are you talking about? And he went, mum, can we go and play tennis. And it's the Bleak Midwinter in Scotland, the courts are frosty, it's freezing cold and I'm like oh god, like the last thing I wanted to do. Artificial grass courts terrible. And I went ok then ok so we went round and we had a bit, we took about half a dozen new balls with us, and we're hitting and I'm trying really hard to keep up and he's whapping it, and I'm like, and he went mum, what is the matter with you? And I went what do you mean? And he went, you used to be quite good [laughter]. And I said and you used to be ten! [laughter].
Andy Haldane: On the erm, I mean you're lucky in that you both played and coached tennis at the very highest level. It's hard to compare. Maybe it's wrong to compare. But which has given you the most satisfaction you think Judy between the playing and the coaching?
Judy Murray: Definitely, definitely the coaching. Definitely the coaching. I think all through my high school years I thought I was going to be a PE teacher and I got to fifth year at school in Scotland - you can leave school after fifth year - and I had, I had enough qualifications to have a place at Edinburgh University. And my form teacher said to me she didn't think there was any point in going into PE teaching because at that time the teaching profession was in a mess and she said there's no jobs, it's risky, it's whatever. I think you should go and do languages. So I did, I went and did languages and I ended up further down the line doing exactly what I thought I'd be doing. I've always loved my sport but I love all sports but especially tennis and badminton. And when I started working at the club with the kids, I discovered that I loved teaching and I loved teaching anybody. I don't care who's in front of me, age-wise, background wise, level wise. For me, the, the challenge is how do I get you to learn to do something and everybody learns differently. Your audience is different all the time. I did, I do huge number things, partly to make it more fun and partly to make it more affordable for everybody, but also to make it inclusive of everybody. And the biggest thing I ever did was in Singapore where the WTA, which is the women's tour, they brought me in to create community engagement around the World Tour Final so topic women in the world and there's not an awful lot of tennis in Singapore. And so I did teacher workshops, coach workshops, parent workshops, kids’ clinics, and the biggest thing was this community clinic the day before the thing started. And they told me I was going to have 32 people on the court and they were going to be mostly teenagers. I said okay that's fine. And then the night before they said we’ve got so many people coming tomorrow, that want to come tomorrow, we've now got X number under tens, we've got wheelchair players, we've got Special Olympics which is learning difficulties, and we've got local some local teachers. And I said okay so how many in total. She said 101 [laughter] but we can give you three courts. And I thought these are people who've never delivered tennis or probably played tennis and they don't realise that to coordinate 101 people across three courts with just me, that's not so easy. And I said okay that's fine. I said we’ll just do it on one court and she said no, no, no, no. you don't understand. 101 people, all these different, and I said well you wanted to include inclusivity, you want community day, I'm telling you I can do it one court so long as I have enough equipment. Okay, they were panicking, sweating, and once we once I did it, the footage of it looked unbelievable. And they had drones and all the rest of it but it was such a great showcase for, we need to teach people to deliver to big numbers so that our sport gets away from being one on one or one on two or one on four, and expensive, and it looks boring, and it's a big court. If you fill the quarter but even if it's 12 or 16 people on it and it's fun, we make our sport more engaging because tennis like all sports, there is, we're competing with so many other things now for everybody's time not least these, running, exercise classes in the gym are hugely popular nowadays in which they weren't twenty years ago. Cycling even, so we have to work harder to make our sport more doable. Easier to do, easier to access and more fun. And so that's kind of what I do now is big number stuff. Yesterday I did a workshop for the Girl Guide leaders and these are all the people who work in Girl, Girl Guiding at their head office. To show them how we could train their 14 to 18 year-olds, Guides, to deliver to the Brownies and the Rainbows. Just simple fun stuff, balloons, bean bags, chiffon squares, colourful, bright, doable, because you can learn the skills that you need for tennis with equipment that isn't necessarily tennis ball and a racket. Tennis is hard if it's all about the racket, the ball, and a net immediately. I don't use a net, I use a piece of funky barrier tape and two chairs. I could do it in here. So we can do it in any space, you don't need to hire an expensive tennis court. So I'm just hugely into making our tennis more accessible to many more people. And my foundation, the imaginatively named Judy Murray Foundation, we, I just operate in Scotland but we go into rural and deprived areas and that gives me enormous satisfaction, because you know, you, you go into places where people have nothing, and you know and you're just showing them two chairs and a piece of barrier tape. And we'll leave you equipment, we’ll leave you with we, we build work forces out of anybody who wants to learn in the local community, because that's the way to empower them. Horses for courses. And don't just go once. Go back and back and back until you build them up to a level where you've got some of them who, who you go, you're ready to do your level one qualification now and they are confident and competent enough to go out and do it. And then they do all the work. But if you go in for a one-off hit, it has an immediate impact but nothing long-term and so that's what gives me the most satisfaction now. When, when I played I was decent, not great, I was decent. I was a good athlete and I was a good competitor which my kids inherited I think from, from me thankfully. They also inherited the tactical brain that I had because I was never coached technically, so I taught them from a tactical base. So if you know anything about how they play, one plays singles, one plays doubles. Great for family harmony. [laughter] But Jamie plays completely differently from Andy. He's all touch and feel and showboat and round the net and quick hands. Andy’s run around the baseline and never-say-die. They are completely different and so you have to create the training program or the development path totally differently. One size does not fit all and that was a massive challenge as well, finding the right coaches, the right environments at the right time. So they ended up in the same sport but they didn't end up doing the same things. Quite, quite interesting. It's quite a good one for when I'm talking to coaches. They just, a lot of coaches do one size fits all and you can't afford to do that. But it will be like, like you, we're all unique, we're all different. We all need different nurturing, mentoring, pathways.
Andy Haldane: And the Importance you said of that mentoring in a sport like tennis which is otherwise so singular, I mean that's one that came across very strongly there.
Judy Murray: Yeah
Andy Haldane: Can I ask a bit about, you touched upon it Judy, about women in tennis, women in sport actually, where there's been huge amounts of progress and you've been a huge part of making that happen in tennis and more widely. What's worked, what's worked for you and where are we? How far have we got and how far is it to go and all that stuff?
Judy Murray: Oh we've got such a long way to go. Such a long way to do it. You, you don't crack something like that quickly. And you know, to, sport is a, it's a male-dominated domain and it has been through, through history. So you're not going to crack that quickly. But the biggest challenge for me was when I got the Fed Cup captain role in the back end of 2011, for me was a massive thing, because it's the first time, believe it or not, it was the first time that anybody actually recognised that I was a good coach. You know, up to that point I'd been the national coach for ten years. I'd created this program. I left just after Andy won US Open juniors because I couldn't get sport Scotland or the LTA to invest enough money in what I needed to take all these kids further. I couldn't get anybody to believe in me or my players. I don't know why. I suspect a lot of it was because I was a woman. I suspect some of it was because I was the mum of two of them. And when they closed the door on me for what became the final time, and I was so sure they would back me after Andy won US Open juniors, that was ten years after I’d started. He started at seven he won that. They’d made the semis of the doubles. Jamie Baker had made the last 16 of the singles. I had three boys in the top 25 in the world, and I was sure that they would go, you know what, it's working what you're doing. What do you need? No. It was almost like well you know we're not interested in Junior Grand Slam champions, we’re interested in Grand Slam champions. And I was like, what the fuck [laughter] and that was it. I was just like, I've done 10 years with nothing. I've worked my butt off and we're making progress and nobody seems to be interested. So I decided to leave and go and you know, go and go with my kids. So for the next however many years I became Andy and Jamie's mum. And I think probably people forgot that I was a coach. So anyway when I got Fed Cup it was like massive for my confidence, it was huge, huge and I really wanted to do it. But what I realised very quickly into that role was how much harder it is to make things happen on the women's side of the game than it is on the men's. So having worked on the men's and seeing, because all the decision makers are men, and all major change comes from the very top, and if the very top is all men, they think with men’s, with men's brains, they see with men's eyes, they hear with men's ears. It's perfectly natural but it doesn't help us. And so I started to look at, okay what do we need to do to make some impact on the women's side, and it was clear. Four times as many boys coming into tennis as girls. Our offering for girls at starter level isn't good, our sport’s too difficult, too dull blah blah. Not enough female coaches. 83% of our coaches are men. We need more women coaches for lots of reasons. For the nurturing at the young age because most primary school teachers are women, so it's no coincidence that actually most of our coaches at starter level are likely to be more comfortable. Women coaches with little kids. But also through the teenage years when women, girls change so much, emotionally and physically, and they go through so much trauma with all the changes that this is where we lose kids from, girls from sport. So if we had more women coaches and PE teachers, we are more likely to be able to create environments in which girls and women can thrive, girls especially. And we retain them more because we understand, because we were girls ourselves. So I'm a massive, massive believer in that and in helping the male coaches to understand how to work more effectively with women and girls. That was kind of where I started, was tackling the workforce. And so I started a program, I started the Miss Hits program which Andy spoke about which is all about just girls 5 to 8. Create an all-girl group, create a group of friends, develop the skills, learn about tennis through the cartoon characters. Faith Forehand, Bella Backhand because little girls engage with cartoon characters and then they move into tennis with confidence, pals. Because if you've got a social group, you will keep girls. We get involved. Fun friends and fitness, that's what gets us into an activity and that's what keeps us in. If we start to lose the fun or the friends, we’ll, we'll drop out. And if our friends drop out, the others start to drop out. So I I knew this from, from my day, I knew it from having teenage nieces. And so I created the Miss Hits program and then I created a programme called She Rallies which is all about, all about female coaches. Started with a first ever all-female coach conference, just for tennis coaches, a hundred and twenty of them. Seven female speakers. I picked all the speakers myself. A lot of them were friends of mine who came in and did it for me for free so I put it together on a shoestring. It was a wonderful day. No egos, network sharing, comfortable, relaxed. I'm a big believer in all-female opportunities because I have been, when I did that performance coach award, I have to tell you this story. I applied for this performance coach award, there was only 20 places. It was the first year of it. I didn't think I would get it because I was a volunteer part-time coach in Scotland, and they gave me a place. I got down there and discovered there was 18 men and two women and I was immediately terrified because the men were predominantly full-time coaches, posh clubs, down south. A lot of them were ex-players so they were ‘look at me’ and I was, one of the tutors said to me, oh nice to see you, welcome to the course, blah blah are you looking forward to it and I said yeah, I'm really looking forward to it but I actually wasn't I was terrified. And he said you're very lucky to have a place on the course you know and I said yeah yeah I know I'm aware of that. And he said yeah we had to turn a lot of guys away [laughter]. And so one of the biggest things for me, as being a coach, is about how you make people feel about themselves. If you can make people feel good about themselves, whatever their level, whatever their background, whatever their age, you can influence a change in behaviour or a change in performance, because they feel good about themselves. And this is especially true with girls. So I thought okay fine and then he went on and he said, yeah we actually had a written complaint from somebody who didn't get a place on the course, about you getting a place on the course. And I'm thinking why is the telling me this? And I said really, and he said yeah yeah he said what could you possibly offer to performance coaching when you have two kids? So I went, I went off for about an hour and didn't speak to anybody and sulked and worried. I really worried about it for about an hour and then I went into fuck-you mode [laughter]. And that has served me very, very well as a woman in a man's world believe me. And when I see the guy who complained about me, because he even told me who he was and of course I knew who he was, whenever I see that guy I always go hi how are you [puts middle finger up]? [laughter]. Where's your players? So yeah it's, but that was my first real encounter with any kind of sexism. I didn't find it in Scotland because I was always forging the path, there was, there was nothing. I was never standing on anybody's toes because nobody was ever doing anything, so I didn't feel it. And I would say that, in all my years of being the national coach and the doors being closed and everybody, so run along, don't be silly, you won't be able to do it. It wasn't until Andy made the third round at Wimbledon as a scrawny 18 year old wildcard ranked 350 in the world, that people started to cross roads to speak to me. People in high places in the LTA who never gave me any time at all, suddenly they wanted to be part of the success and I was like, I'm just closing my door on you. So yeah it's, yeah it's been a, it's, it's been a journey but I'm just hugely passionate. And I think when you look back on your life, we're all products of our environment. And I think that the fact that there were no opportunities for me when I wanted to try to play tennis, led me to want to create opportunities for the Scottish kids when I got the national coach job, further down the line. And I think knowing what it feels like to be a female coach in a very male-dominated industry, has made me want to do the She Rallies program. So female coach conference, 26 ambassadors, very part-time, like 2,000 pounds each, that's it all paid for by the LTA. Equipment bags, video backup of all the content, train them for two days, created a team. Now have 50 ambassadors. And these women go out into their backyards and they train other women who might want to get involved in delivering. So they could be teachers or parents, youth leaders, students, fifth and sixth year pupils, club members, older teenagers. Because we’re not getting women into our industry to do qualifications, there's no salary jobs, there's no career pathway, so we have to tap into it in another way, in a very relaxed way, which is right for women. Bring them in so they create something in their own backyards. So it's a very simple concept and I've started doing the same thing in Australia with Tennis New South Wales. They read about what I did here, they asked me to go over and I trained 20 women. I trained 20 of them over 2 days and they go into their backyards which are often very, very remote. It’s a massive area territory. And they have to find one woman to buddy, mentor, take with them, on-the-job training. So where 20 becomes 40. And when I go back next year in January and I take them for another two days, I'll take 40. And then the 40 will become 60 or maybe even 80, and we just grow it through a buddy system so you learn in a relaxed, on-the-job training environment, which is exactly what I believe in. So, and that really floats my boat. All that stuff and sadly, maybe, because my kids say to me, mum, why do you work so hard, why did you travel so much, why did you keep doing this, you're 60, sorry [laughter]. I went, I love it. I still love it and I still have this huge passion for the game and for sharing because I never became institutionalised. I never became part of the LTA institution which is easy to become. And sometimes you, you get into an institution, you can lose your creativity, you want bosses who encourage creativity and individuality and, and so forth. And I think in big organisations within sport, it's very easy to just, everything so slow, it's like pushing water up hill, it's like. That's why I like to do my own thing. I can be nimble and I can jump and do what I like to do.
Andy Haldane: I want to get the audience in a second but last question from me Judy. You mentioned about the importance of confidence in young people, in girls in particular, I remember really a few years ago, it was a few years ago now, you saying that, until relatively recently, you hadn't been especially confident about public speaking, which I mean you’ve given a good impression today of having overcome that and some. So what, how come and what happened?
Judy Murray: I'll tell you what happened. I'm so, yeah. Up ‘til maybe I'd say, probably when I got the Fed Cup job, you would have really struggled to get me to speak in front of an audience, even a group of coaches. I don't like people looking at me. Like even when I see you here I'm scanning and I'm not really making any eye contact because it's the same thing. You find a way to deal with everything. But what happened was in 2010 at the US Open, the ITF, which is the governing body, world governing body of tennis, it announced its new board. And its board had 14 men on it. And I got, made me really angry. So I went to find the Director of Development and I started to rant at him. I knew him, he's Irish. I'd known him since when he was a player. And he just let me rant. And I said who's gonna look after the women and girls side of the game, you know, we're a 50/50 sport with whatever, your whole board is men and you're supporting, you’re the developmental arm of the game, and whaa whaa. And anyway I went off on it and he said are you finished and I said yeah. And he said okay, the Constitution is such that we can only take, we can only pick the Board from who's put forward by the member nations, so all the countries in the world that have Federation's which is loads of them, and they only put forward men. I said so it's even worse, it's even worse, there was none to pick from and he said yes there was none to pick from. And, and, and I went why is that, why is that and he said well look at you he said. How many times have I asked you to speak at our worldwide coaches conference and you go, oh no I couldn't possibly do it. I don't speak in front of people you know, I'm too you know, whatever. And he turned it on me and I went right, right, I'll do it, I'll do it. Because it just suddenly, a light went on that I thought, you know, if we don't stand up and speak up, how does anybody, how do we influence you know, so we have to. And I went and did this coaches conference in Mexico and I, I was sick. I’d got sick before it and I still went. And I was ill on the flight and I spent a whole day in my room, not speaking to anybody because I'd lost my voice. And I went to do this thing and I walked into the room and there was a thousand people. And I went oh god, kill me now. But I survived it. I'm not convinced it was very good what I did, but I stand in the middle of this tennis court with a thousand people, probably about 900 men maybe and a hundred women, that's our usual split, ten to one in tennis, and I did it. And when you survive it, if you're out of your comfort zone, if you survive it, you get confident, bit like I did on Strictly. You get more confident, you don't get any better at the dancing, but you, you get more confident. You have to put yourself out your comfort zone. But I'm always one of these people, I'm always looking for what's next and how do I do it better. I still do it even that workshop I did yesterday, I'm speaking to the girls that helped me afterwards and I'm going what could we have done better, I missed that, I didn't do that, and actually it was a great workshop. I've just, I've always been like that. So I went off and I'm thinking how do I do that better, and I found my own way to do it. And I made myself from that point on, do three a year, overseas, as a woman. Because in all the years that I was learning to coach, I had to go out of the country, there's nobody for me to learn from in Scotland. And when I went to some of these conferences overseas, I never once saw a female coach present, it was always men. And I thought it's the same thing. If female coaches in the audience don't see female coaches presenting, how do they aspire to go up. How do they think it's something for them? It's that if you can see it you can be it thing. And so I started doing three a year, and I found my, over time you get better, everything when you practice it, and I think over the years I got a lot of confidence from doing Fed Cup, a lot of conference confidence from doing Strictly. Had the best time doing that. Quite funny, I had to ask my kids about it because our lives all impact on each other. And when they came to ask me if I was interested in doing it, I thought I’d better ask the boys. So I took the easy option first and asked Jamie. And, and Jamie went, Oh mom you love that program, you love it, he said you do it, you’ll have a great time, that's great. I went to see Andy and he looked at me and he went, oh my god, [laughter] you'll be crap. And they were both right, I loved it and I was crap. But that was how I got started and so things like that with, with Fed Cup I had to do a lot of media for the team, and because when I took on Fed Cup, nobody knew what Fed Cup was. We were in an obscure zone, we had no big-time top players. When I left Fed Cup we had ??????, made the semis of Australian Open. We were ready to go into the World Group. We had a team that could survive in the world group, we didn't when I started. We had no profile when we played our first Fed Cup tie, no media came. So we did social media, we did all our dresses and all the rest of it. We did Hello Magazine, we did the Daily Mail, we did it all ourselves. Because nobody came with us. And now it's completely different, it's completely different. It’s, it's big time now, we've got ourselves into the World Group, we're playing home-and-away ties. We didn't have home-and-away ties then, we were in an obscure zone. 16 teams in Israel or Budapest or somewhere. You know it's like playing a club match, you know, nobody's there. Really blew my mind. It's completely different now, thankfully. So there's so many things that have been a part of influencing change for the better with the girls. But the speaking thing, I did a book a few years ago, I did it with Penguin Random House, and they put an incredible publicist with me who put on this massive book tour all around the country, which was great fun for me, because it's like doing this and you're talking about everything we're talking about, and other, obviously loads of other things that are in the book. But that gives you a lot of confidence as well because you just get used to, you just get used to doing it. So I'm always saying to the women that I work with if I'm trying to encourage them to speak up or something, I said do a little first, do it alongside somebody, do it in a Q&A for five minutes. Don't overdo it, just build it up gradually. Don't throw yourself into something that's going to absolutely terrify you because then you might never do it again. But if we don't do it, we'll never, we'll never get to where we want to go, we'll never spread the word enough. So all you ladies out there, go out there, stand-up, shout about it, do it. So yeah, practice for sure,. And so I can I could come into these kind of situations and don't have to worry about them, especially if you get, if you get good questions. But you only need to ask me one question and I don’t shut up [laughter].
Andy Haldane: Let's go at that point to the audience and questions for Judy. There’s some roving mics so wait for the mic and who wants to kick off ? Let's start, your hand was first up.
Audience member: Hi Judy. In terms of junior coaching there are lots of club coaches, sort of level 2, level 3, but beyond that, what do you think about the accessibility of the strong performance coaches for juniors?
Judy Murray: The accessibility of…
Audience Member: so the performance coaches, the sort of level 4s, level 5s, the juniors who want to go on that bit further to sort of County and beyond.
Judy Murray: Yeah we need. I have felt for many years that the LTA has not invested anywhere near enough in coach education and coach development. And better coaches means better players. So we certainly don't have a lot of women operating at level 4 & 5. Sometimes that's to do with the hours. It's 4 o'clock and evening and it's weekend, just when you get most of, it’s your social time so if you have a family, those are, it often doesn't, doesn't fit with that. But that's, that's not the only reason. Sometimes it is just that whole confidence in yourself but we don't have anywhere near enough level fours and fives across the country. I have tried many, many times to put things on to almost show the way, but you know, you, you really need strong people in, I think, in the coach education and coach development department who actually understand what a good coach looks like. Who actually, and we need good teachers, presenters because we are the first impression of our sport. But we don't have many and I think as an industry, because we don't have many salary jobs in tennis coaching, and we don't have a career pathway, you might say a career pathway as in level 1 2 3 4 5, but in terms of a job career pathway, there isn't one. And so as a coaching industry, we're not particularly attractive in tennis, and I think that has a lot to do with it too. So investment from the governing body in people would be my way of going to it, ensuring there's a career pathway, and making sure that if we had stronger clubs, we'd have more salary, potential salaried jobs as well. We don't have a lot of really big strong clubs like they do in France or Spain or Germany for example.
Andy Haldane: Fantastic. Next question. Let's go there in the middle and then we’ll come down.
Audience member: Hi Judy, thanks for coming along. Slightly different world but I run a grassroots football team in London and I actually started it on social media, so Instagram. I found that there was a massive untapped pool of women, 18 plus, who just felt that actually had they not become performance athletes, you know we've all got full-time jobs now, and actually there was just a big grey area. I think you sort of specified grassroots sports is super important and actually the community element, but what do you think the role is of the big sports brands and the media in, sort of encouraging and you know, sort of giving the visibility to women in sports? Do you think they can be doing more? Do you think that they sort of focus on the big events, like the Women's World Cup, we got loads of attention, we got sponsorship from some of the biggest sports brand, but kind of afterwards it felt like it faded off of a bit. What do you think that role is? Do you think they could be doing more? You know, how have you found those interactions yourself?
Judy Murray: That's possibly the longest question I've ever been asked [laughter}. Yeah, I think in 2013 I was approached by the Women's Sport and Fitness Foundation which is now Women in Sport, and they had released or were ready to release some research that they had commissioned into women in sport, and they wanted somebody to figurehead the, the, all their findings to the media and they came to me. And guess what I said, oh no I couldn't possibly do that, I don't know anything about anything except tennis. And then they said no we need somebody with a profile but somebody who's older, so not a young athlete. Well anyway to cut a long story short, I said well send me the, send me the stuff and I’ll have a look through it and anyway she had to persuade me. Prior to it she sent me all this stuff and the research was shocking. So it was a little what you're alluding to in that something like 0.5%, 0.05% of all sports sponsorship is women. 0.5% of sport media coverage is women. 3% of sports journalists are women for example, and on and on it went. And I'm reading the whole thing and I'm like, it's making me angry. And so I phoned her back and I said ok I'll do it. And I did it and so and it was it was quite, it was quite a lot of work to do it, but it made me really want to get into it more. And one of the things that I, I went on this think-tank thing with the government and it was a fantastic panel. So there was Karen Brady was on it, Claire Conner from who heads up women women's cricket, brilliant, brilliant. We were all there, all of us there. Tracey Crouch who was the sport, went on to become the Sports Minister. It was headed by Maria Miller at the time. Anyway there were six of us on it, we all had completely different backgrounds in sport and it was fascinating what you would learn from everybody. But what, what one of the things I said on the coaching side is if we want to get people to invest in women's sport, big brands and the media, we need to make our offering watchable. We need to invest in the performance first to get it up to a level where people want to watch it. If people want to watch it you put bums on seats. It goes on TV and then comes the sponsorship and the media and the whatever. So the first thing is the performance. So if you look at the incredible performances over the last few years of the England cricket, rugby, football, netball, hockey, world class, and it's gets the ground swell going. So I say performance first. I also say that if it is always going to be I think predominantly women who want to watch women's sport, I'm not saying exclusively but predominantly, so we have to put it in front of things that women watch. Female parts of newspapers, women's magazines. Not the back pages. I always think about like somebody like Katrina Mathieu, I don't care if she scored a 66 I want to know she falls out with her husband when he's caddying for her and who looks after her children you know. Her baby was tiny when she won the British Open women's of some years back. I want to know about all that stuff. What do women want to know about women's sports stars? Some of them of course will want to know the scores and the thing, but we want to know the personality, the background and all that so put it somewhere else. So that's just a short answer of yes. But if you build the performance first and we get the, and we encourage female athletes to want to grow their profiles, because not all of them want to, not all of them want to put themselves out there because we aren't as confident in ourselves in general. Maybe we don't want people knowing all about us. But if we want to grow it we have to play our part in that. So I think those, those things would be my two things. Performance is the most important thing otherwise it's, oh that's rubbish, don't want to watch it therefore I won’t sponsor it, whatever. So investing in the performance and that goes back to the governing bodies, and the club's if it's something like football. But governing bodies putting money into the level of women's sport. We've been quite lucky in tennis because it's been a 50/50 sport because of the Grand Slams for forever, we've been very fortunate but when you go further down, if you look at our gender pay gap in tennis in Britain it's like one of the worst, because all the top jobs, the key decision-makers are all men. They won't make decisions. They won't make the right decisions I don't think on behalf of women. All sports should have a female-led, women focused element of their development strategy, led by a woman or women. Absolutely no question. If I was a sports minister that I would insist on that [laughter].
Andy Haldane: We'll fix that for you [laughter]. Let's go to [inaudible]
Audience member 2: Thanks. Judy with your a fantastic input into the development of Jamie and Andy's game, I'd be very interested to hear your take on how much of that is, how much of their huge success and ability comes from pure hard graft, and how much of it is a sort of what you might call it like a god-given gift or talent. Because if you can achieve that with them, surely even Scotland must be full of potential Andy's and Jamie's. I just wondered what your thoughts were about that.
Judy Murray: Yeah well it’s something that I say all the time is that talent is everywhere, opportunity isn't. There is talent everywhere, in everything. Somebody has to spot the talent and create the opportunities that nurture it and then it becomes about the hard work. No, no question. I've seen loads of talented kids who don't want to work hard, who've had the opportunity, and it doesn't go anywhere. So there's no question that the hard work, and bringing the attitude every day when it becomes a life in business, because when you're little it's a hobby, and you can park it when you want. But when you make that decision that you want it to become a career and you go off and you train full-time somewhere, you can't park it when you want. You’re having to bring it every day and not everybody can do that and that's a talent in itself. That whole application day in and day out. So the players in tennis who get to the very top are the ones who bring it every single, every single day. And the ones who sort of plateau here, sometimes they're maybe not as good physically, but this [points to head] is what separates the top from the rest, it’s what goes on in here. I think what, because everything was such a struggle for us to make things happen for the boys, when they both went to train overseas, Andy at 15 and Jamie after he finished school, it was three years of financial stress for me that was just horrific, awful, just awful. I was so skinny, it's not that I’m big now but I was about seven stone. I was just, three years of complete and utter stress. Borrowing money, never knowing whether you're going to give it back. Just writing letters and never really getting anywhere for sponsorship and so forth. So the only thing I ever insisted on with the boys was that they tried their hardest because they knew how difficult it was, and actually when I did my book, Andy said to me mum you never told us that you borrowed all that money. And I went no why would I. What are you gonna do about it at fifteen [laughter]. But he said why didn't you tell us and, but you wouldn't because that doesn't matter. But you know when he read my book he's like 30 and he said you still didn't tell us and I went well no, it's fine. Because we managed to pay it back and it's fine, everything's fine. But it was a real financial struggle so the trying your hardest was an absolute must for me. I never got caught up in the winning or losing thing, it was all about the learning and what's next. And I still got called a pushy mum. [Laughter].
Andy Haldane: Let’s take two more quick questions though and we'll start, first one down here.
Audience member 3: First of all Judy I'd like to say that I'm as gutted as you that Lopez got married [laughter]
Judy Murray: [laughter] I love it.
Audience member 3: and secondly, I’m a big tennis fan, we both are, and we always say really, what is wrong with the LTA? I mean that is a big question. But you know, your two boys have made this massive success. Andy most in singles because that’s what people mostly watch, and yet when they did that brochure earlier on this year, they airbrushed you all out of it.
Judy Murray: They did
Audience member 3: So as much as you can see. I mean it just seems to me that they’re just full of old farts .
Judy Murray: [laughter]
Audience member 3: So really they should have been really capitalising because from what I can see, there’s not another Andy coming up any time soon. There’s nobody in the firing line.
Judy Murray: We should have a lot more strength and depth on the men's, the women's and through the girls’ side. We should have much more talent in the coaching side than we do. As a grand slam nation and home of the biggest prize in tennis which is Wimbledon, and with all the millions that come into the LTA from Wimbledon, we have a very poor return on investment and we have done for many, many years. I have loads of theories about you know what they could do and over the years I've done my very best to show them by going out and doing it. I don't wait for anybody anymore. I see something needs to be done, I go out and do it. So my Miss Hits programme I created it myself. I didn't speak to anybody, I paid for it all myself and then I said to them, here I've done this. Because if you wait, big organizations they take forever and I can't be bothered waiting. [Laughter].
Andy Haldane: You don’t say [laughter]
Judy Murray: But I also feel that because the LT is a very wealthy governing body, sometimes when there's too much money, you don't make the best decisions. I think that when I look at what we achieved in Scotland with nothing, every penny counted, we brought in people that, you know the parents, and it didn't cost us anything and we made a lot happen. And so it really frustrates me so much that we have a wealthy governing body with 300 staff, an incredible setup at Roehampton, and we still get so little back. But you know, I feel like if I was going to do something again in Scotland which if I'd known what I was getting into I probably wouldn't have done it, because it so takes over your, your life, but if I was going to do something again in, in Scotland, I would do it exactly the same way that I did it before because it was just natural, generic. It was all about people. You need to care about your people and you need to bring everybody with you. And I think what has happened for a long time in tennis in the UK, my feeling is, there's too much us and them. It's us out in the field making everything happen and them in the ivory tower that don't get out enough. They don't get out enough to mingle with everybody who makes the game happen and support the game at grassroots. For a number of years there was too much focus on the top end of the game, all the investment was in performance. We want another champion, we want the big events and things. Actually 99% of the tennis that's played in the UK is recreational. That's where the investment should be, the recreational. And then the cream will float to the top and then they'll be more cream because the base is bigger. That's the way that I see it and I think you often find organisations very good at talking about what they need to do, but they don't actually do it. I go out and do it. I just go out and do it. Get in my van, you should see me white van woman [laughter]. I just go out and do it. But it suits me, it's just I'm yeah. So yeah. But if they would listen, if they would listen, if they would listen and then act. But you know sometimes people listen and they might agree, but they don't know how to put things in action. You sometimes find that as well. It's like yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right but they don't know how to act action it.
Andy Haldane: Let's take, what time, squeeze in one very last quick question. If there is one so we'll go up the top. It’s like pass the parcel. [Laughter].
Audience member 4: Comes a long time. Thank you Judy for that very inspirational talk. I'm sure that I would have won Wimbledon if you were my tennis coach I think yeah [laughter]. That's not my question so have you thought of doing
Judy Murray: I’d be taking 10% of your prize money [laughter]
Audience member 4: I’ll take the 90 I think. It would still be okay. Have you thought of doing stuff out, using those amazing leadership skills, sort of outside of the sporting world as well because I think there might be a role as a new governor coming up shortly. I wondered whether you might be putting your hat in the ring for that one?
Judy Murray: Yeah I think I probably haven't really had, I don't really have any time to take on something else but that's not to say I wouldn't consider it. If it was something that kind of really made me feel yeah I could really make a difference, I think that's the biggest thing for me is wanting to make a difference, wanting to know that using my time to be effective and not just going somewhere because somebody says I'll pay your fee to go and do X. Well no, that becomes a one-off you know I like what I do with my Foundation, I like what I do with my women's programme. I like the stuff I do overseas with the WTA because you're creating around the backdrop of the big players the big events, you're creating opportunities for the local people to learn how to coach or to come and play or be inspired by. But you're getting rackets in hands basically. I might, I might, I might consider sorry something, it depends really what it was. But I have very little, I've got very little time.
Andy Haldane: Not Governor of the Bank of England then [laughter].
Judy Murray: [Laughter] No definitely not.
Andy Haldane: Sports Minster? Sports Minister?
Judy Murray: Sports Minister, there you go.
Andy Haldane: You’ll take that one
Judy Murray: Do you know I did a thing last year with Nicola Sturgeon as, two of us and an interviewer, and we were asked if we could do each other's jobs. And she said there's no chance I could do Judy's job because I can't play tennis. And I said there was no chance I could do her job because I can't be nice to people all day [laughter]. Because, you know, it is that thing with politicians I know that, you know, you get fed up, they're just trying to score points off each other a lot. But if you want to see something, she can’t swear for example. Like I told that story about FU mode in that story as well because it was a predominately women audience, and she was laughing her head off and she said I know exactly what you mean but I'm not allowed to say things like that. You know, so it was fun. Yeah I don't know. I did enjoy that think-tank, I did enjoy being around people from, who came at sport from a completely different angle from me, I found that really fascinating. But I want to tell you one little story before I finish about Feliciano Lopez
Audience member: [inaudible] [laughter]
Judy Murray: If you don't, if you don't know who he is, he's a very gorgeous Spanish tennis player and he got married on the weekend and I was devastated [laughter]. He's also a great pal of Jamie and Andy's. And many Wimbledon's ago, maybe, maybe 2013, Andy was practicing at Wimbledon and I went to watch him practice. I sat in the stand, I didn't realise who he was practicing with because I didn't have my glasses on. I'm answering an email. He shouts up from the court, just a small court on the outside, and he said mum come down and get your picture taken with Felly. And I looked up and I thought oh no he's practicing with Feliciano, and there I was beetroot. And he went Felly, my mum really fancies you [laughter]. Even more beetroot. So what did I do, I picked up my bag and I ran away [laughter]. I did, I was like a teenager. I just, a reaction. And I was like oh my god. It wasn't like I didn't know Felly. But anyway a few days later I get a message on Twitter. If it had been a text I'd have been fine. It was on Twitter. I was not so ofay with Twitter as I am now. And it was from a German tennis player called Andrea Petkovic who I had done some work with the previous summer. Also a Feliciano Lopez fan. She said guess who I'm playing mixed doubles with at Wimbledon and I went not Felly, she said yeah. She said and we would like you, this is playing out on Twitter, we would like you to coach us. And I said I'd love to but I'm not sure the boys would approve. And she said we will give you 10% of the prize money and a picture with Felly. And I said I'd rather have a picture of the prize money and ten percent of Felly [laughter] [applause]. On Twitter. Mistake [laughter]. Next day, two pages in the Sun, Judy Murray Cougar [laughter]. Beware of Twitter.
Andy Haldane: We can't top that [laughter]. We’d better, we’d better stop. But Judy thank you so much
Judy Murray: Pleasure
Andy Haldane: For being an absolute inspiration, not just for the past hour, but for the past several years. Lots of takeaways I think for all everyone in this room. Let me pick out one there. Talent is everywhere and everyone but opportunity is not and you know, for each of us in this room, it's about creating those opportunities as it has been for you in the world of tennis and sport
Judy Murray: Yep
Andy Haldane: well generally that's a massive takeaway for each of us. The other one for me has been the four Fs of Judy Murray. Fun, friendship, fitness and of course the kind of fuck-you mode. Which I’ve actually underlined here as the one for me to work on personally over the next few months. So on behalf of all of us…
Judy Murray: I've got another story, sorry [laughter]. I want to tell you a Strictly story and then we can leave.
Andy Haldane: Cut the camera by the way.
Judy Murray: Okay so we're, we're doing strictly. I’m with Anton and we're in the, you're in an empty dance studio so you, your partner, no costumes, no props and a CD player. That is it, that's what you practice with and then you go to the studio and everything is completely different. Props, costumes lights, cameras, band, not the CD player, completely different. So for somebody who was a complete novice and totally useless like me, I couldn't, I was too. I think when you get to 50 it's very hard to learn a brand new skill because you just can't remember everything. And also I was too excited so it probably wasn't listening half the time anyway. Anyway we're, it's about three days before our first dance and we've got a waltz or it was supposed to be a Waltz, Mull of Kintyre, and the set manager comes to one of our practice things and says to Anton I'm having a think about what do you want on the set, what do you want for the props. So Anton says I want the full kilt outfit, I want Judy in a white dress, tartan sash, I want a bag piper, a live bag piper piping us in. I want a grassy hillock with a little seat cut out of it and heather all around it and I'm thinking oh it’s so lovely, it sounds lovely and he said we're doing Mull of Kintyre so it's mist rolling in from the sea. I want dry ice and can I have it to neck height. Think about it. And at that point I knew I was shit [laughter] [applause].
Andy Haldane: Please join me in thanking in the usual way, the amazing Judy Murray.